What is an Affiliate Newbie vs. Super Affiliate vs. Digital Nomad Affiliate

By Ian Fernando

Josh Sebo: Today we have industry legend Harrison Gevirtz, as well as another industry legend, Ian Fernando, a super affiliate that's been in the game for over 15 years, who also recently became the VP of network operations at A4D, a company led by Jason Akatiff. Who is a friend of the show that's fully committed to solving your marketing problems through technology.

Ian, I hate to bury the lead, but I know you're in Brazil. Thank you for joining us on the, you know, your side of the, of the world right now. What's going on by you over there? 

Ian Fernando: Doing good. It's uh, pretty cloudy today. We're actually in the fall weather, uh, period of Brazil. Like, Brazil actually has four seasons.

So right now it's actually chilly and... Oh, 

Harrison Gevirtz: and it's backwards. So like, winter is the summer? Or summer is the winter? Like, our summer is your winter? 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So after fall, within July, it'll be winter for sure, 

Harrison Gevirtz: yep. I mean, how cold are we talking? I, like, I was gonna start off and be like, Why are you not at the beach?

And then you answered the question before I could ask. But, like, how cold does it get in the winter in Brazil? I mean, today's 

Ian Fernando: fairly cold. It's, uh, what is it? Like 20 degrees Celsius? 70? 

Harrison Gevirtz: Dude, what? 28 degrees Celsius? Bro, it is, it's like 

Josh Sebo: 70. It's like 35. Look how cold I am. It's like 35 degrees Fahrenheit here in Cleveland, Ohio.

I'm fact checking myself. You're living the good life, my man. That's 

Harrison Gevirtz: sick. Yeah, 20 Celsius. Fahrenheit, which it is like a nice day. It's not that bad. You don't have snow. Like you don't have blizzards, right? No, 

Ian Fernando: no. Well, we do have hail. Like there are days where just poor as hail, so it's like knocking on your window.

I'm like, dude, this break my window shit. But yeah. So Ian, 

Josh Sebo: how long, oh, go ahead. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Yeah, go ahead. How long have you been there 

Ian Fernando: for? Four months already. Uh, I came here last year, was here for three months. After we fell in love with it, it just reminds me of like, New York, and after like two weeks of just being here, I'm like, oh god, I gotta move here.

This is where I want to be based out of now. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Voce fala portugu√™s? 

Ian Fernando: I don't speak Portuguese. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I asked if he speaks Portuguese. I just googled translate. I didn't know. Oh, okay, 

Josh Sebo: cool. I was like, damn, bro. Okay, 

Ian Fernando: cool. I don't speak Portuguese. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I like you speak it pretty damn well, man. So, you got that going for you.

Josh Sebo: Ian told me he goes out at night and uh... Talks to the locals and that's basically how he, he studies and he teaches in English. It's a beautiful thing. 

Harrison Gevirtz: My, uh, my mom is French, and when I would go to France in the summer, I would just walk around and everyone and be like, , parle. So it's the same thing. That was my hustle.

Everyone, I'm just like, you speak English? And they're like, no. I'm like, great. Not making friends with you. Great, I'm making friends with you. People would tell me they didn't speak English, and then my mom would ask them with her legit French, and they'd be like, Oh yeah, I just don't want to talk English.

So, I was a loser in that regard. They're very proud of the French. 

Josh Sebo: Yo, Ian. Ian, how did you meet Harrison? You briefly were telling me about it before you hopped on, but I love to make Harrison feel uncomfortable, so let's revisit that. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Being uncomfortable is good for growth. Let's hear it. Yeah, so it's 

Ian Fernando: a long time ago.

I'm pretty sure it was in Vegas, um, either on the show floor or at a club. I remember him having a pink, flirty, uh, uh, scarf. Uh, thumbs up Steve's 

Harrison Gevirtz: and that's how I hate me. 

Ian Fernando: Right? Uh, just I think it was either in the club or on the show floor and I just forget when but I remember him sticking out because of the pink flurry scarf and I'm like, ah, I know this kid.

I read about him and that's when I approached you, uh, talking about him. Damn, you've read 

Harrison Gevirtz: about him. Not legally allowed to be in the club but I probably was at the club. People always ask me, why don't you really go to the club that often? I'm like, I got it out of my system at age 16. I'm over it. 

Josh Sebo: I mean, speaking of the club, Harrison, 

Harrison Gevirtz: I did make another appearance, you know, at rainbow, we, we really, we care about our customers.

So when a customer asks. I deliver and I was asked to go to the club. We're celebrating one of our clients birthdays. So I made an appearance. I really need to have earplugs with me at all times though. That is just the problem. It's too loud. I don't mind the club if I have earplugs. So 

Josh Sebo: Harrison on the flip side, what's your version of how you met Ian?

Cause you guys seem to have known each other for a very long time. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I believe it was an affiliate summit and I don't remember if it was a club or a. A show floor. What's funny is my first couple affiliate summits, they were 21 and up shows. And I wasn't allowed to go and so and I didn't want to burn the relationship and like borrow someone's badge because I didn't want to get banned from the show for when I was old enough because I knew that this is my industry.

I'm not going anywhere. And I hate. So I would sit like, it probably was the club because I. I finagled my way into the club, but I did not finagle my way into the trade shows. I would stand out front of the show and, like, do meetings or take people to, like, restaurants and stuff. And my memory's a little blurry, but I did have a pink scarf at one time in my life.

I was a different, different phase. I'm in the more of just not wearing pink. 

Josh Sebo: Now you're in the, uh, yellow sunglasses inside phase. Yeah, you know 

Harrison Gevirtz: what? Good call. As I was saying, I have to be classy, dress up a little for you guys. So yes, I remember that. You pretty much were like, Yo, what's up dude? Are you Harrison?

And I was like, yeah, what's up? And we met. This was back in the era where everyone had a blog. So you had your blog. I believe you already had your blog at this point. I had my blog. I think we did some guest posts a long, long time ago. Like, I was 15 years old, like, this is hilarious. I gotta dig it back in the database for this.

But, you know, we, we always crossed paths. I've seen you in different continents before. Like, I think I saw you at a show in London before. Uh, back. 

Ian Fernando: I've seen you in the Far East. That one, you know, 

Harrison Gevirtz: and uh, you know, we've always been, we've been pretty cool. We don't talk that often, but I know Ian Fernando, like someone's like, yo, can I talk to Ian?

I'd be like, yo, I'll message him on 

Josh Sebo: messages. I, I know Ian Fernando and me and Ian like really don't know each other. Ian, I remember hearing about you. Cause I used to work with Darren Blatt at the affiliate ball. And he would always drop your name as a legend in the industry. When I was first getting started way back when.

But it's, uh, it's awesome to see that you're still crushing it. And speaking of this leads us right into our first topic. So as a super affiliate of 15 plus years, I'm curious, why did you make the move to a four D as the VP of network operations? Did you get tired of just doing the affiliate? You know, day to day and you want 

Harrison Gevirtz: something online, late bidding of affiliating got old.

Josh Sebo: Yeah. Like why, why, why does, why does the guy who's crushing it for 15 plus years is a super affiliate? If it's okay to call you that, why does he make that change? 

Ian Fernando: I guess it becomes boring, right? So there's, there's always something like where when you launch a campaign and. You get your first conversion, the building up to that campaign is the fun part, and then the conversion part becomes the boring part for me.

It's like, oh, I could probably scale this, but then I'm like, I don't want to, right? Because it's like easy. I think in part of my life now, I'm trying to look for what is next, uh, for me business wise. I've made some bad investments in the past, so I just need more education, right? A lot of bad financial decisions, too, with, uh, you know, just buying into other properties or buying into businesses.

And plus, the opportunity to just work with Jason is just... Sure. Gold, I think, in my opinion, too, right? 

Josh Sebo: I mean, that's a topic that I threw in last night. We'll get to that, but I want to ask you more about that, but keep going. Sorry. It's more just 

Ian Fernando: like, what is next? I just don't know what's next. Like, how do I grow, right?

Because in this industry, you're just either flipping Facebook accounts, Google accounts, arbitraging all day, like, I mean, what is, where are you technically growing once you figure out how to run a campaign very easily, right? Like, you create a campaign and you actually get bored of it, right? And for some people, like, it's fun, like for me, the money part is I've made so much that it's half become boring, right?

So where am I growing within the affiliate marketing? It's still the same thing. Sure, I'm adjusting to the traffic sources, to new offers, to maybe new verticals, new e commerce products, new... Traffic sources, but it's a very small percentage. Like where's the true growth in affiliate marketing for an individual, right?

Especially for a solo affiliate, right? 

Josh Sebo: What's your day to day look like when you were first getting started? Let's go back 15 years, right? And then I want you to compare it to what your day to day looked like not now at A4D, but right before you made that switch. When you were just like, still I'm, I'm the super affiliate, right?

So like, cause I think there's probably a lot of Beginners who maybe this episode is their introduction to affiliate marketing. And there's probably some other super affiliates who are seeing if Ian Fernando is still, still got it. Right. So what was, what was the day to day and the difference of like that beginning and that not the end, but that transition to where you are now, man.

Ian Fernando: So if we start off with me having a job, uh, I mean, it would be like, I would work three, three jobs at a time and then work affiliate marketing for Two hours a day, but eventually some of this stuff turned into profit where I was able to get rid of two jobs and eventually got rid of the third job and then work to affiliate market, but it was like only 16 hour days.

Right. It wasn't like a regular nine to five, you know, 

Harrison Gevirtz: you had that OG affiliate grind. I know. Yeah. 

Ian Fernando: That 16 hour days, 20 hour days, you know, just refreshing your screen all the time. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Yeah. You know, full time job of pressing F five. 

Ian Fernando: Hopefully to see, especially when you're like, I was using tracking toe to back in the day, I would always look for the dollar sign in there and their lives on like 

Harrison Gevirtz: the live where it would show like, click, click, click.

Ian Fernando: So obviously it was a lot of research, trial and error. At that time, I was running more Google, uh, traffic in the past. Now, obviously doing a lot more mixed. Um, but now I literally was probably only working like four or three hours a day, looking at campaigns, consistent, stable, doing things like uptaking traffic.

Why did something dip down X amount? Right, um, I even took like two years off, right, from affiliate marketing just because I have so much access that I'm like, I don't really need to work, right, or there are times where... 

Harrison Gevirtz: When you took that time off, did you get like bored, or what did you do with your free time?

Like what were you up to during that time? Oh man, I just, I was 

Ian Fernando: going through like a quarter life crisis. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I'm having that currently. I, I, I, I recommend 

Josh Sebo: it. I was gonna, I was gonna say everybody has their own version of that, but what did, uh, I mean, if you're comfortable sharing, like what did the crisis look like and how did you come through it?

Ian Fernando: It was just again, being, um, cause at that time it's like, okay, I was doing it also like Amazon doing print on demand, I was doing it for marketing. So I doing a whole vast. And I also just got out of a bad partnership with Nutra where we had a company for like five years for Nutra, killing it. And I'm just, I just needed a break and I just went to Asia for like two years and just partied every day.

You know, I just 

Harrison Gevirtz: got drunk. You just got it out of your system. Yeah, exactly. Well, you're in Brazil partying now, so never mind. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, kind of, right? I mean, I'm not going hard, hard, hard, right? But it's just... Same thing, different country, but I'm not depressed. I'm not like, you know, trying to dissolve my sorrows in, in alcohol.

Like I was, you know, my core, like crisis issues, you know, for sure. 

Harrison Gevirtz: So sense. So, well, I got a question for you real quick. Sorry. So like, I always think about how different the affiliate marketing industry is as a whole. From now, like today versus 15 years ago when I was like a young tyke running ads and getting clicks and leads and stuff, you know, what, what are a couple of things that stick out to you when you think about how different it is to be, you know, media buying and, and running traffic to offers because it's crazy how different things are and I'd love your perspective on that Ian.

Ian Fernando: Um, I think the level of affiliates back in the day till now are not as creative, like I'll still like, for example, I'll read like a one issue with tick tock was running debt. And they recently pulled up like a financial issue, you can do debt or credit something on on tick tock. So I'm like, Huh, I wonder what do they mean by that they're wording.

So I figured yeah, I measured all my wordings on my landing page, figured out how many 10% credit and debt of like 25%, and then I slowly remove certain words, or percentage of credit and debt, and every time I would get resubmitted, if I get denied or approved, I'd be like, oh, this is where the threshold is for accepting a landing page where I can push financial offers.

You don't get those type of affiliates anymore, that think like that, right? 

Harrison Gevirtz: Well, to their defense, I will say this and you will agree, I mean, you, we're in the neutral world, so you get it. I think that the, uh, the entire internet, but especially direct response or affiliate marketing, online advertising, whatever you want to call it, Was much more of a wild west back then, you know, we don't have as many, uh, IQ test SMS offers or 4.

95 shipping free trial acai berry offers or like for, you know, psychic offers that are free, you know, like the quantity, the quality of offers is definitely a little bit better today, I think, and like, you kind of have to You can't just be shady anymore. Like, 15 years ago, people were just running, throwing shit at the wall, something sticks, who cares?

I see less Dr. Oz 

Ian Fernando: on the internet. That is true, that is true. I mean, back in the day, I remember buying Google Ads for like... Justin Bieber, ringtones and like, yeah, 

Harrison Gevirtz: no one cared now, like there's rules now. And I think that's good for longevity. If you could adapt and you can run stuff in a clean and productive manner, like you're going to succeed the fly by night operation of affiliate marketing, which was my youth, um, you know, it's kind of dead and that's, it's good, but it was fun.

Ian Fernando: I know I do. I do agree for sure. Like I, I've evolved from that, like. Make that money right now because I need it. I fully market my ATM, right? Just throw them that boom make money now. It's like shit. I actually need to turn this into a business You gotta try now. I gotta I gotta work with the partners with the advertisers directly to make sure Miley's it's good quality How to convert on their side what their true cpa, right?

So learning that side of business also is very very important but that evolution on a publisher side very very different now because Before you can just run, be a fly by literally right now. You kind of have to get involved with everybody that you work with. 

Josh Sebo: Yeah. So I want to, I want to revisit the second half of the question.

You said at the beginning, it's like, I'm looking for that dollar sign on the ticker, right? I'm hitting that refresh button. So what did the affiliate game look like when you were at year 15? And you were in Fernando and everybody knew your name and you're crushing it. Like what did your day to day look like?

And how was it different from the beginning? 

Ian Fernando: Uh, I mean, literally it's just like throwing up campaign three hours of work. There's really no big difference. Um, there's probably simple research that's happening, looking at ad spy tools. Since I already have so much knowledge from the past, I kind of just know what to throw up right away, what kind of layouts I need, what kind of ad or angles I need to go after.

Um, so not really much work. It's really... There's no complications in the work that I do now as a publisher, whereas before there's a lot more because of understanding the algo, click bidding, uh, ruling, probably thinking about more different angles back in the day, what work, keyword targeting. Now it's just, it's just so much knowledge in my head that's just a checkbox in my head now, right?

So literally three, Max three hours, four hours of work on and off, uh, you know, and just maintaining watching. I'm not even going after for like the 100k months anymore, like as long as I'm maintaining certain campaigns that are constant, because what, what I hate is campaigns that scale and then they die off and it's like two months of like no traffic, no income, like, okay, where do I go with certain offers that will stabilize, right?

I don't want to scale too much because it might just tick off the Facebook traffic algo and just kill it. Those are the things that are, that worry me more so. 

Harrison Gevirtz: What would you tell... Real quick, I was just going to say, I think that one of the biggest changes I've seen from the affiliate mindset of 15, 16 years ago versus today is that people are beginning to think long term.

The analogy that Adam and I used is... When we kind of made the transition and began to build Ringba and, you know, made other investments and built other businesses, the, the analogy was we're done spinning plates. And we actually want to build something. And I think that, that is an important mindset shift that this whole industry has seen.

Um, like, you just, you just spoke the word of it. Like, it's how it is. It's pretty cool, honestly. Yeah. To hear that. 

Ian Fernando: I think it's cool that publishers like to build. Like, I, example, like, I like enjoying building the campaign. Right? Um, and it was fun. Again, the conversion part and the maintenance becomes like the annoyance part for me nowadays.

Right? Uh, but I mean, now I can throw the analysis into ChatGPT and it tells me which one's, which one's better. 

Josh Sebo: Ian, we're not allowed to talk about ChatGPT anymore. We've spoken about it for probably like 75%. And they 

Harrison Gevirtz: refuse to give us money for sponsorship. No, we haven't actually tried. But no, they're just getting 

Josh Sebo: in.

I was going to ask you, like, what's something you would tell that newbie 15 years ago, if you like that you wish you would have known when you were getting started, that you have acquired, you know, over the past 15 years that you feel like really would have given you a leg up. If someone's watching this, they're getting started.

What would you like really tell them to focus on to, to kind of skip a lot of the. Trials that you had to go through 

Ian Fernando: trials, man. I don't know about trial, but I'll tell him like collect leads, like always collect leads. Like if I had my email list from like my blog and in the new two days, I can only just throw an email, write it up in 30 minutes or an hour, and then that would be it.

Most of my day would work. Right. So like I'm doing a new two days. We had like a million records of like, we had another, like three, three point something of like contacts. And if I was, if I kept that warm throughout the years, I can just throw up an email a day and just be good with it. 

Josh Sebo: So to comment on that, how, how would you suggest kid electing leads and making contacts like that?

Like what, what were your best methods of doing that? Well, 

Ian Fernando: it's using the vertical, creating a simple opt in. Like we were doing stuff for like, uh, an ebook to affiliate offer. That's what I would do. Right. I just, I tell a lot of people to always usually do that, right? It's just a landing page, right? The only difference is you'll probably get a 2% sleeper scope.

What I've noticed is a 2%, 3% down in your LPCTR, but you have to lead, you know, so that's the most important part. Right, but it still acts similar as a landing page, you know, instead of getting a 60% LPCTR, you probably get like 57, 56, 55 LPCTR just because there's an option in there, but it just tells you that at least more qualified because they're taking an action and hopefully they turn into conversion through your seven day email series, right?

Harrison Gevirtz: Quantity. Quality over quantity is what you're saying. So you might lose a couple of visitors, but your quality overall is going to increase. You might make up that difference in a getting a bump on the offer you're running because the quality is so damn good. Yeah, 

Ian Fernando: exactly. Harrison, 

Josh Sebo: what would, oh, go ahead.

Yeah. I don't mean to cut you up. 

Ian Fernando: No worries. I just always tell publishers to always collect because if, if I had that list today, I wouldn't just, I wouldn't be working. I just be like collecting leads every day for that same YouTube stuff. And just send an email a day easy, you know, 

Josh Sebo: Harrison, I was going to ask you the same question, like, what would you tell the guy wearing the pink scarves, you know?

Harrison Gevirtz: Don't wear pink fucking scarves.

Okay, okay, we're on the same page here. Um, no, you know, I think that, uh, when I was younger, I probably could have been a little more frugal. I probably would have said don't buy jewelry. Um, you know, you, you've made bad financial decisions. I, as well, when I was younger, uh, have made plenty of bad financial decisions.

Um, so, you know, that is a lesson learned. Um, but, you know, I think that I, I guess I would tell myself now, if I was talking to me then that. I should start to I should I should have that spinning plates analogy. I wish I saw the light on that a little bit sooner because I'm really proud with the businesses we built and what I've done.

But, you know, it's really a grind when you're affiliate when you're being an affiliate, you're going hard and, you know, you're having these 7 whatever K days and you're, you know, you're netting 40, 50% margins. And then you wake up 1 morning and that should just burn to the ground. Like. That's mentally taxing.

Like there's this, this little story, I won't go into too many details, but Adam and I had a, had a business about nine years ago now, and it was a, you know, close to six figure daily revenue business for almost like two years. Like we crushed it. And one day there were some browser updates, Google changed some rules and that we thought the server was down and no, it was like, we just got nuked.

Like it was zero. And that was actually kind of the moment where we went. Like that was fun. We crushed it. I tried to like save face, like, Hey, let's, let's relaunch. Let's get our, and we realized like, no, you got to just build, you know, build something that lasts for the longterm. And so I would tell myself to look at things that I can build for the longterm.

Because if I had started that mission when I was younger. Probably build some cool shit versus like just trying to find another diet offer or dating offer or pin submit to promote. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I remember when I first, first started, um, I bought a house cause back in the day all these bloggers were buying homes.

I'm like, I can buy a house too. So I'm just going to buy a house. Right. And then I think like a couple months in my revenue. I was losing like 5 to 7k a day and I actually got into like depression, like my first depression and it was so bad because like with like three months of like no, no revenue coming in and just losing money trying to figure out why.

And at that point I was like Damn, did I get in this industry by accident? Am I actually really good? Do I actually have talent? Am I good at marketing? Or was it just by luck of the draw, right? That's what was racing through my mind back, back then. But eventually, things got back up. Uh, you know, slowly, slowly, uh, Racked up a bunch of credit cards, but came back through, you know what I mean?

But yeah, those days where it just gets nuked and you're like a month without revenue. That's the downside of affiliate marketing for sure, right? And that's like the ugly side of it too, 

Harrison Gevirtz: right? Those days when you wake up and you're like, shit, I got no campaigns running or I'm breaking even, are painful.

Um, you know, I had a funny discussion like 10 years ago with someone and he said that he stopped his campaigns because they weren't profitable enough and I, I know this isn't fully relevant, but I just, I want to share it because I always baffled me when he told me this. He's like, yeah, I was making like 7% margins, 10% margin.

So I just stopped. It wasn't worth my time. And I'm thinking like. Dude, what the fuck? Like, if I make, if I spend a hundred dollars, and I make a hundred dollars and six cents, I'm keeping the ads running, bro. Like, come on, right? You know, 

Ian Fernando: so now at that point, it's like, oh, is it optimization? And what I do need to adjust is a campaign structure, right?

Harrison Gevirtz: So let me try to negotiate a bump on the offer. Let me go run, write some new ads. Let me see what I can do to increase my, you know, CTR on my landing page. Let me up my quality score with Google. Let's try some new ad sets on Facebook. Like keep hustling, man. I, when I heard that, I was like, this dude's coasting.

Like, come on, bro. 

Ian Fernando: A lot of affiliates are coasters nowadays, I've noticed, right? So. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I gotta be careful on this one, but a lot of people coast and there's a lot of people that have very successful businesses and they could be more successful if they didn't coast. How's that? I'm saying politically correct today.

Ian Fernando: Definitely agree. Definitely agree. Ian, 

Josh Sebo: where do you see the affiliate? Game going in the future. You've been around a pretty long time. I know we like briefly touched on where it was and where it is now, but like, where do you see it evolving to over the next few years? And how do you feel like you're going to have to adapt to like, stay on top?

Ian Fernando: I don't think it really changes. I think it adjusts, right? Adjust more. Like I think everybody's going to need a broker for a lead for sales, right? Only adjustment industry does is getting used to new traffic sources, getting used to like AI development, for example, you know, creative adjustments, you know, whether you get video content, like how do you adjust from doing all creative from like image to now video, right?

Um, like for me, I recently just adjusted into paper call, like just last year and that's a very interesting topic, right? Or maybe like five years ago, more into, more into a push over pop, right? Or maybe three years ago, I got more into vertical videos, right? Versus, uh, creatives. So I wouldn't say the industry changes, it's just adjusting, you know what I mean?

So that's how I see it. Everybody's gonna need a broker. Everybody needs referrals. Everybody's gonna need, um, somebody to give them sales, right? So that arbitraging, I don't think will ever change. But the adjustment of getting used to new concepts, ideas, evolutions of the industry, you just gotta adjust to it, 

Harrison Gevirtz: I think.

You know, I, I agree with most of what you said, but there's 1 thing that I, I think that I disagree with. And it's, you mentioned the new traffic sources. I think about 15 years ago, how many more traffic sources existed than today with what we run, you know, there's been a true consolidation and a lot of the traffic sources where now, you know, the majority of traffic is coming from Google, Facebook, tick tock.

It's like, that's a lot. Now, there's definitely those push networks. There's definitely domain traffic. There's definitely, there's still pop ups. There's still video ads, but I, I, I think like continued consolidation is a real thing. Um, you know, the Internet has become double click with its own thing.

That's Google. You know what I mean? Instagram was a separate thing. Facebook now has their own, you know, you know, they're everywhere. So I agree with you there though. Uh, 1 thing that I believe. And I think that, you know, I, I don't think it's going anywhere, but I think it's, it's harder to just be the affiliate that buys traffic on Google throws up a quick landing page and generate some leads or throws people to calls.

I think now people have to actually build products and not like an offer. I mean, like, A directory or a site that's resource intensive and has, or, you know, for a customer, like there's resources. If we're talking about credit repair, financial services, or insurance, it's not just like, here's my insurance lender call for Medicare or call for ACA, whatever you got to actually.

Invest in what you're showing the customer and focus on quality. Content and like building something because these big companies that are buying calls or buying leads, they have media buying teams too. And you gotta, you know, I guess you could say in today's world as a, as a media buyer, as an affiliate, you have to prove your value a little bit more, which I think is good because it's going to teach those coasters to stop coasting.

Ian Fernando: Uh, you know, affiliate for sure. It is hard. Um, that's why I think a lot of affiliates have evolved into teams, agencies. Two partnerships, one, get the resources, talking to the advertiser, direct one, running the media, buying one, setting it up. Right. I think that also is just an adjustment in the industry because validation is also, I think you're right.

It's also an adjustment. Like native traffic, like almost taboo and our brain almost or taboo, almost buying out our brain, right? It would have been a crazy consolidation of that source as well. But Yeah, I mean, there's so many traffic from like, Quora to Reddit, but all the volume ones, obviously, with the tier threes, uh, tier ones, you know, Google, Facebook, 

Harrison Gevirtz: YouTube.

There just used to be a lot more tier two and tier three now, you know, and now it's like, that's still there, but it's not what it was, and, and I, I do say, and I'm not actively buying Meteor these days, you know, but I miss those options, because I had a lot of fun with those. Those were... You could, like, make a, build a relationship with someone, spend a shitload of money, make a shitload of money, and, like, good luck building a relationship with Google.

They don't really like, they don't like 

Ian Fernando: anyone. Yeah, I, dude, I remember we were spending, like, close to half a million with Google for Neutro Days, and we got, they gave us a plaque of, on that day when we spent our first million with them, they gave us a plaque of, you know how, like, Google changes their, uh, their screen or logo every day?

They sent us a plaque of that day, of what the logo was, and like, dude, that's what we get for like, spending money on a house. Yeah, dude, I just, 

Josh Sebo: I just rolled my eyes when you said that. I was like, damn, 

Harrison Gevirtz: alright. Yeah, it was like falling apart. You're like, dude, really? Okay, I guess that's what we'll, I'll take the gift.

Do you 

Josh Sebo: remember, do you remember what, like, it was? What was the day? Like, what were they celebrating? 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, I don't know what the, the, yeah, 

Josh Sebo: it was always like a fun game. When I opened my browser, I'm like, Hmm, can I figure out what this actually is for? 

Ian Fernando: Yeah. I have no clue. Yeah. I was like, it just came in a mail.

I'm like, thanks for your first million. And it was a picture of the. 

Harrison Gevirtz: A box of tic tacs and a shitty Google logo, right? Yep, pretty 

Ian Fernando: much it. Yeah, so, it is what it is. 

Josh Sebo: Are you still doing a lot of work with Google, Ian? 

Ian Fernando: Nah, most of my traffic would be internal with uh, H3D currently. So, I test traffic now with them, and then pass it over to the internal team, you know.

Josh Sebo: So, I know you, I know you travel a lot. We briefly talked about Brazil, and I know, So basically you were kind of a digital affiliate marketing nomad for, you know, eight years. And honestly, it sounds like you might still be in some regard. So I'm curious, like, you know, I asked you what the typical day looked like from the beginning to where you are now, but I'm curious, like, how does the travel affect your day to day?

What are some of the trap challenges associated with travel? What are some of the beauties of it? And what would you kind of say to an affiliate who maybe is buying a one way ticket to Thailand They know what their work is going to be, but they don't know what their life is going to be. 

Ian Fernando: Man, that's, that's a crazy question.

I don't know. I travel with a very, very open mind where I think getting lost is very important. Um, losing yourself, uh, in the city, rediscovering yourself. I think it's important, right? As a publisher and affiliate. I think routines are very important. I have a very strict morning routine. Like I don't pretty much start my day to like 10 o'clock.

Josh Sebo: Well, can I, can I jump in right there? I'm really 

Harrison Gevirtz: curious. Do you wake up at 10 in the morning or you start 

Josh Sebo: your work? Can you, can you walk us through the morning routine? Unless it's like super personal and you don't want to share, but I'm curious. Cause I think a lot of people. Like, we, we talk about routine on the show all the time, especially in the morning, non negotiable wake up times, meditation, stuff like that.

So what does your morning routine look like? 

Ian Fernando: Uh, I'm usually up by 7 30, pretty much automatic since the sun hits my window. Um, I'm up, you know, a little bathroom, take care of the manly stuff, right? Uh, then I pull out my yoga mat. I do my stretches for 15 minutes, meditate for another 10 minutes. Then I go to the gym for an hour, hour and a half, dependent.

You know, cook breakfast, do a little errands in the morning. But that's pretty much my fixed routine. Like, I have to do my stretching, yoga, meditation, gym, in the morning first, for sure. Like, before, before 8 o'clock. 

Josh Sebo: If you need any tips on, on the gym, Harrison's your guy. I don't know if you follow him on Insta, but he's...

Yeah, I 

Ian Fernando: see him on Instagram. Plumbing my 

Josh Sebo: irons. He's getting after it. New PRs every day, bro. Uh, so that's, that's actually really interesting. I have my own morning routine. It's similar. I'm not really working out, but I always try and meditate. I find my day is always a lot more balanced when I do. And one of my favorite quotes is like, if you don't have the time, if you can't find, I think it's Tim Ferriss, maybe.

It's like, if you can't find 10 minutes to meditate, you should probably find 20 or something like that. But, uh, so it takes you to 10 a. m. And I think that's. Dope. Because you're not putting out fires as soon as you wake up. So what happens at 10 a. m. 

Ian Fernando: I log in, check stats and I go, you know, now that I'm with A4D check, uh, tickets, how their traffic, what did we do yesterday or the revenue.

Right? Why are we down? You know, I just create a whole list of like, errors of what I gotta look for. So, every morning, writing out notes of what I gotta do. Right? So... 

Josh Sebo: Dude, I'm a big notebook guy. Yeah, same. Love a good cross off, dude. Nothing feels better. 

Harrison Gevirtz: I feel like I need to share my routine now. So yeah.

Oh, sorry. 

Josh Sebo: Well, we all, we all, we all watch it on Instagram every day, but yeah, you can 

Harrison Gevirtz: watch it. Well, okay. So I have to say full disclosure, my routine is going to change. I've been in Scottsdale, Arizona now for a couple of years. And on Saturday, I'm actually moving to Miami. So if you're listening and you're in Miami, you should say what's up.

Cause I'm new to a city. I want to make lots of new friends. Um, but. I typically start my day with my Arizona routine at 3 45. It's real. See, I didn't just make that up and I wake up. I eat a small snack and then I drink pre workout. I have a special 1 that it's called crack gold edition. It makes me shake and feel like I'm having a heart attack.

I spend about 3045 minutes checking emails that I got overnight. See if anything, you know, needs urgent attention. Um, and then I'm at the gym. Monday, Tuesday, or yeah, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, I go at 5 a. m. On Wednesdays, it's 6. Um, I do an hour workout, come back, protein shake, sometimes have some egg whites, which taste terrible.

Um, and I just start working and I grind pretty much non stop until about 2. 30. Then I got a 3. 15 workout. After that, I get home except on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I do Pilates after the workout, um, and then I work for like, maybe two, three more hours, go eat an early dinner, and I try but usually fail to be in bed before, like, I try to go to bed at 8.

30, but I usually don't go to bed at like 9. 30, 10, um, I definitely meditate. I usually meditate before bed, actually, but sometimes, and I have that free hour after I wake up, And go to the gym. I actually will meditate if nothing happened and I'm feeling a little on edge or something. I'll just I do like I use the insight timer app, which has a bunch of free meditations and I really like it and it tracks me.

I got to like 64 days. Uh, in a row and then I burned myself one night and I didn't meditate till after midnight. So like, I didn't break my cycle, but the app is like, 

Josh Sebo: so yeah, that's, I was really, you gotta hit up, you gotta hit up the tech team over there and see if they can help 

Harrison Gevirtz: you out. No, I I'm holding myself accountable.

So I lost my streak, but, um, yeah, like. I think having a routine is really important. I was actually, so I'm here at Vegas right now. Uh, I was at the Medicarians trade show. Reba has a big booth here and I've taken my fitness levels to an extreme level of douchiness. So I actually brought a trainer with me and I was telling him this morning, like dude, cause he trains me in Arizona.

I said, dude, I'm really scared about like my routine. Like I gotta have a routine. He's like. Don't worry, bro. You got a month you'll figure out, you'll figure out your routine. You'll get your routine. But like, that's one of my people like, are you scared of moving? I'm like, no, I'm scared about my routine.

I'm going to be like, so insistent for the first little bit. So routine is key. That's for 

Ian Fernando: sure. Especially when you travel for sure. Like I try to bring that routine wherever I go, but the first week is like, you know, jet lag definitely ruins it, but. As long as I have that routine. I don't even have breakfast before like nine o'clock, right?

Uh, so I go straight to the gym. Bro, I 

Josh Sebo: don't even I don't even eat breakfast, dude I do like intermittent fasting not by choice But just because I slam coffee and it crushes my appetite and then I eat like a massive dinner And that's kind of I don't know. It's not even like I know people like consciously try to do that It's just like how my body works at this point.

I don't know. I was gonna ask you Ian though Do you have like a non negotiable like? Bedtime, if you wanna call it that, like, to make sure you get a certain amount of sleep or you just kind of like wing it depending on what you got going on. Yeah. So most of the week, 

Ian Fernando: I, most of the week I try to be in bed like by 10 for sure.

Uh, but I do go out a lot. Um, but I, I try to be home before 11 for sure. Like last night I was home by like 10 o'clock. You know, uh, so I was able to get in bed before 11, but I do try to get in like at least six, seven hours for sure. 

Harrison Gevirtz: So I, I got a digital nomad smell test for you. Two questions. Do you live in an Airbnb or did you sign a lease?

Oh, this 

Josh Sebo: is a great question. We were just talking about this. Okay, go ahead. 

Ian Fernando: So this is now a lease, but was an Airbnb. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Okay. Then you have retired from Digital Nomad Life , and you're officially adulting in Brazil. 

Ian Fernando: Congratulations. Well, I, I am. Thank you. Thank, well, I am trying to like settle because. So you wanna stay there for a while?

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm working on my digital nomad visa right now, which will give me two years here. Oh, that's cool. Um, so, yeah, 'cause again, I just fell in love with the city and plus the big issue I'm trying to now resolve in my life, like relationships. Right. Because the dating scene is hard when, when you're leaving the country every 90 days.

Right. So 

Harrison Gevirtz: that's one thing. Well, I, I just realized you, we said you were in Brazil, but I don't actually said what city you're in. So where are you at? Uh, Sao Paulo. Nice. Have you explored some of the other cities in Brazil? Have you traveled around the country at all? Like, what is, what's like the difference between like, I think Sao Paulo is inland, right?

And Rio is on the water? 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, Rio's on, Rio's on the water, yeah. I was in Rio last year. Amazing. Uh, definitely smaller. Um, definitely a little bit more dangerous. But it was cool. You know what I mean? Um, like you can see, if you're on the beach, you can still literally see people from the favelas rob people on the beach like every day.

Right? So, even like, you'll see them at gunpoint. It's like, it's just normal to everybody on the 

Harrison Gevirtz: beach. It's like a chick in a bikini getting pointed a gun at her to take her phone. Wow, that's rough. Okay. 

Ian Fernando: And then I went to, uh, South, uh, Bahia, which is another, I flew about 30 minutes, no, no, an hour and a half flight from here.

That's also near the coast and that was fun, uh, but very, very hot. So, but I like, I'm a city person. I'm not really a nature person. So let's 

Josh Sebo: talk about, uh, A4D and Jason, you know, you mentioned like, you got a little bored of the affiliate life and like working under. A guy like Jason, like what more needs to be said, but I really would like to know, like, what is it like working with Jason?

Uh, you know, for anyone who didn't watch our episode with Jason, I would highly recommend it. I believe it's episode two. And I think it's the most viewed episode that we have, if I'm not mistaken. But it's either 

Harrison Gevirtz: episode two or three. I'm I'll check. Yeah. I'm 

Josh Sebo: pretty sure it's two. I'm the moderator here.

Don't ever question me again. All right. Uh, so I want to know like, what, what, what's it been like, like, is it. I mean, whatever you're comfortable saying, but like, is it a little bit intimidating? Are you feeling challenged in ways you haven't before? And if so, like what are some of the challenges and how have they impacted your growth as you know, a business person and a human being?

Ian Fernando: I mean, Jason definitely challenged me a lot for sure. Um, so when I had my businesses, what I realized as a business owner, especially during Nutra and like my Amazon stuff was like, I hated being like a CEO. Right. I just hated dealing with employee dramas and things of that nature, right? It's just, it was just so petty to me.

But now that I'm helping Jason with the network, he's pushing me to do the, doing more of a delegation, like understanding how to delegate properly without being so forceful, demanding, things of that, right? Whereas I know before I'd be like, damn, why, why, who cares about this? Let's just do this. Right.

Being super aggressive to my employees, whereas now it's just like, well, make sure you have trust, make sure you care. Don't do it in a demeaning way. Like he'll coach me through a lot of stuff, which is very, very helpful. Um, but it's also intimidating because when numbers are down, he'll. He'll ask why numbers are down and I'll be like, Well, there's an issue here, there's that, right?

Um, and I hate being 

Harrison Gevirtz: He probably has good feedback though when you're dealing with those issues. He probably can help you strategize and stuff. For sure. 

Ian Fernando: No, for sure he does. The problem is I, I always hate giving him bad news, right? Because it's like, like disappointing like your favorite uncle or your dad, right?

Like It's like, oh, sorry, I couldn't get it. It's like, it's very hard, right? He's such a legend, super knowledgeable that you don't want to disappoint him, right? And that's, that's the intimidating part that I have with him, right? 

Josh Sebo: So what are some of the ways you try not to disappoint him? Like, do you have...

Some things that you really focus on, or is it just kind of like you have that fire under your ass and you're just working as hard as you can? Yeah, 

Ian Fernando: uh, I mean, I'm working as hard as I can for sure, but it's a lot of strategizing with the team, trying to push them to, you know, get more publishers, get more publishers to run specific offers.

Now that we're getting into the paper call, uh, space more so, and a lot of our publishers over at AE has are more lead gen, e com. So trying to work with them, trying to get them, hey, let's, I'll help you find these, uh, call publishers, right? Let's do this. Maybe we need to go through the email newsletter.

Let's go through your book of business. Let's start getting on more phone calls, right? How do we strategize with your publishers? Can we, you know, evolve them from a lead gen person to, you know, a call person, right? So it's more of a strategizing part, which is, uh, fun, but also like, Not fast resulting, right?

Because if Jason wants, you know, results tomorrow, and I'm starting a strategy today, that strategy doesn't get implemented probably until the end of the week or next week, right? So, yeah. 

Josh Sebo: And was it Jason who like said like, Hey, You're a legend. I would love to have you on my team or was it you that said that to him or was it over years you guys kind of just kept talking, Hey, I'd love to do something with you.

Like, how did, how did all this come to be where you actually ended up getting the opportunity? 

Ian Fernando: Yeah. Yeah. Um, John Vogel reached out to me. Um, cause they're, Jason was looking for a campaign strategist to help publishers scale their businesses. Uh, so. It would have been a good idea where I would, and so I first came on board to help publisher scale, like going from like 10 figures a day to six figures a day through, through strategy, through maybe campaign restructuring or whatever, just having another mind to talk about the campaigns.

But it looked, it literally took me like two months where I was deciding, arguing with myself, like, do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? Um, And then I was like, sure, I'll do it. I think the idea is to just get knowledge, uh, and expertise from Jason. That's where I see the value for me, right? Because again, I'm looking for growth.

As a person, and Jason definitely can deliver that, right? 

Harrison Gevirtz: Real quick, uh, Josh, you're right. Jason was episode 2, not episode 3. I am wrong. I take accountability when I'm wrong. 

Josh Sebo: Ian, what kind of discounts are you getting on the yachts? On the what? On the yachts. 

Ian Fernando: Yachts. No clue. No clue. You 

Harrison Gevirtz: haven't shopped for a custom yacht from Jason yet?

Come on, dude, step it up. 

Ian Fernando: Ladies. I have to step it up, you're right, exactly. 

Adam Young: So you guys started without me? What the 

Josh Sebo: fuck? I was about to say, ladies and gentlemen, Adam Young from Ringba. How are you, Adam? What's going 

Ian Fernando: on? I love the hair. 

Adam Young: Good. Sorry, guys. I had to take a meeting at this trade show that's going on right now, but I just wanted to pop in and say, what's up, Ian?

Thanks for coming on the show. Of 

Ian Fernando: course. Of course. Appreciate it. Thanks on. Dude, 

Josh Sebo: Ian's been crushing it. This has been a great episode. Uh, Adam, I mean, now that you're here, like. Why don't you hop right in? What do you got, what do you got for Ian? Any questions? 

Harrison Gevirtz: Adam did extensive show prep, I'm sure. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, yeah.

Adam Young: Yeah, uh, yeah, I am curious, man. Like what, what was it like for you going down to Brazil and changing your diet entirely to like the local food as opposed to what we eat up here in America, which is generally pretty shitty. Like, I'm just curious how that 

Ian Fernando: process went actually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't eat a lot of local Brazilian food.

I, I mean, I just go to nice restaurants here. Uh, like they're really good food. Like a lot of Japanese food is very, very good here. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Um, I read that the large, I think the largest Japanese population outside of Japan is in Brazil. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, I was just going to say that. Exactly. Yeah. So they have like 11 Michelin star restaurants here that are just purely Japanese.

So, I mean, like sometimes I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll have local food when, you know, I have a girl, but I mean, most of the time I'm going to nice, nice restaurants, like decent Thai restaurants, Thai places, you know, Japanese food more specifically. Right. So no change really. 

Josh Sebo: Actually discussing food and now that we're, you know, graced by the presence of the Adam Young.

Adam, I, I saw on Instagram, you had a dinner. In Vegas with 20 CEOs. Is that right? 

Harrison Gevirtz: Yeah. 

Ian Fernando: So, 

Adam Young: uh, on Monday night, I hosted a dinner with our good friend, Sam Malamud, who is the CEO of NCD insurance, and also one of the partners in Medicarians. I don't know if that's Public or not, but guess it is now. And, uh, so he had hit me up and asked if I wanted to host a CEO dinner with him.

So we looked at all the CEOs who were attending the show and tried to pick out a really amazing group of people. Not just because they're CEOs, but also, you know, who's interesting. Who's working on really cool projects and from different areas of the industry. And then we all invited them to Hakkasan, uh, and had the big private dining room there.

And thank you to Harrison who put together an unbelievable menu for that. It was outrageous. We got through 

Harrison Gevirtz: the appetizers. I was full when they finished the appetizers. Literally 

Josh Sebo: I was like, fuck. I peeped, I peeped the menu. Cause I think you posted a pic. It looked pretty insane. Yeah, we 

Adam Young: literally have 20 pounds of leftovers in the fridge 

Harrison Gevirtz: over here.

I'm gonna go have Chinese food after the pod. Like, we got so much. 

Adam Young: But we love hosting events like that. And, um, you know, I actually met Ian at a Geek Out event recently. I mean, I've known of him for over a decade, you know, we're both old, old. People in our industry. Um, but I met him at an event. And so I really loved these types of events, hosting CEO dinners and other type of dinners like this, because anytime you can get 20 brilliant CEOs in the same room to talk about anything, like it's not just like new business comes out of that, the world will literally change.

Like if you can get 20 incredible entrepreneurs together, put them at a table and get them talking about. The things that they're passionate about, they literally will go out and change the world. And so I absolutely love being involved in events like that and hosting events like that. And we try and do it regularly.

Um, and it was, it was such a great time. And so thank you to everyone who came. I have like, no doubt that some incredible changes in our industry will come out of just Uh, 

Harrison Gevirtz: that dinner, 

Josh Sebo: are you able to tell us, like, what some of the discussion topics were from a bird's eye view? Because, well, 

Harrison Gevirtz: actually, Josh, we have a rule at the dinners.

It's no pitching, no snitching. So, no, but what I will say is that it's just a, it's like a mind meld. Like, we, we weren't only talking about business. We were talking about things we're passionate about outside of our work, things we do in our lives. And like, it was really just like, um, A really great group of people just talking about what they're good at, what they're, you know, and what we're not good at, what we want to do better, what we need help with.

We, I think most people at that dinner brought up a, maybe an issue or a problem that they're dealing with and trying to solve in their business. And, you know, people that. Don't even do the same thing, like, that are completely in a different, you know, wavelength or different kind of world. Like, not everyone there was an Internet marketer.

There was a lot of people that are on, like, the services and software side for Medicare insurance, like, providing software to. Insurance agents and stuff like that, but they were able to just give ideas and feedback just because everyone's like we're in a safe space. Everyone kind of trusts each other because they're at this dinner.

And so everyone's kind of willing to share and open up and help each other. And that's why it's such a great vibe at those types of 

Ian Fernando: events. Yeah, I remember like back in the day when I was my first affiliate, uh, show, oh no, my second one, I wanted to do like a dinner with just publishers that I wanted to talk to, like the high end ones, like back in the day with like Charles Ngo, Wayne Sheriff, uh, Chad, you know, and just having a dinner and just paying for everything just so I can have 

Harrison Gevirtz: Just soak up knowledge like a 

Ian Fernando: sponge.

Yeah, and then that turned into a trend. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Thanks I also didn't go, but I, fucker. 

Adam Young: You know, Josh, I actually would like to give an award. I'd like to give a trade show award on the show right now. I would like to give the trade show award for the biggest fucking balls. To the CEO of Health IQ, who actually showed up in person at this event and hung out with some of the people he owes tens of millions of dollars to and isn't paying.

So, shout out to that guy. Wanted to thank him again for not paying a whole bunch of our clients tens of millions of fucking dollars. Really appreciate that. Yeah, and so I gotta give him some props buddy way to take our clients money and use it to buy Uh trade show passes probably nice hotel rooms, but I will give it to him took some fucking balls to show up Damn, that is wild.

Nice. Damn. 

Josh Sebo: Damn is right. You own the episode. That was lit. Did you, uh, did you get a chance to speak with him, Adam? No. 

Harrison Gevirtz: Yeah. Some people we know did and they had some friendly conversations though. 

Adam Young: Yeah. I just got to meet with a bunch of my customers who saw him here who were very upset that they still haven't been paid their tens of millions of dollars.

And so as. a software provider in the industry, it's pretty frustrating to hear that someone like that, uh, just isn't paying their bills. And not only that, he won't even talk about it. So, um, and by the way, I invite him on the show. I would love to have him as our special guest. To talk about what happened at Health IQ, please come on the show.

Let's have an honest, open conversation about it. I won't even harass you about the debt you owe my customers. And let's talk about when things go wrong. I'd be happy to talk about the times I had to do mass layoffs, and my businesses went under, and I 

Harrison Gevirtz: had to move back. I can talk about my failures at EWA.

I'll get vulnerable. We'll have a vulnerable. Yeah, let's do it. Therapy and podcast. 

Ian Fernando: Yes! 

Adam Young: So we invite you, please 

Josh Sebo: come! Uh, Ian. I'm curious. Ian, have you ever had a situation where you've been owed a bunch of money or you've gotten locked? Or you've gotten burned? How much does Harrison owe you? How much does Harrison owe you?

actually, uh How did you

handle it? What would be advice to some of these people? I'm sure Health IQ is a bigger Issue for them right now, but what did you do to get through 

Ian Fernando: it? I don't have really, I mean, I've had payout issues, but I think one big one was, uh, a promoting offer in, um, Europe. And, uh, so they, they had to pay out in like, uh, US dollars, uh, in their dashboard, but because I think the Euro was adjusted, they adjusted that pay at like 30, but I ran a traffic for it for maybe a week.

And they wouldn't pay me that difference of like the three or four dollars. So that kind of annoyed me, but I mean, all you can do, not, 

Josh Sebo: not quite on the same scale as how, yeah, okay. 

Ian Fernando: I've had, I mean. I haven't really had like big payout losses, uh, and I've been very, very lucky with that just because I've had a good relationship with, uh, the people with my AMs and plus I have a blog, right?

So, like I remember shouting out like DirectTrack for being a shitty tracking platform. They wanted to pay me like Dude, DirectTrack, 

Harrison Gevirtz: that's, I, yeah, dude. 

Ian Fernando: And they wanted to pay me like 10k to take that post down. I'm like, nah, I'm gonna keep it up. Um, they actually want to even fly me down to their office to discuss how to make your tracking better.

I mean, I'm, I would have been very lucky. I'd never had very big payout issues just because I think my name, uh, burdens weight in the industry and it's very effective, I think. So I think that's another reason that I never had a really big issue in payout besides that small, small, uh, issue with, uh, currency exchanges.

Josh Sebo: So Ian, I was actually going to ask, you mentioned the blog, and I know you're 

Harrison Gevirtz: not asking me that question because we need another hour. 

Josh Sebo: You mentioned, you mentioned the blog and I know you're, you're deep in the A4D life right now, but do you have anything else going on like outside of A4D that you're still really busy with or that you're passionate about?

Um, 

Ian Fernando: not really. I still have my Amazon FBA stuff, my, some of my print on demand stuff, but they're pretty much all technically automated. Like, I don't even touch my Amazon FBA, uh, my VA does most of the work, I just fill up a credit card, uh, it gets shipped to a shipping center that ships to, uh, Amazon, right?

I mean, instead of making like the traditional 12% ROI, I'm now doing like 7 or 8, depending on the products, right? Uh, but also Amazon is also a different beast, it's just me arbitraging too, as well. Right. Um, the print on demand stuff, uh, also very automated. It's via Etsy, right? It's just super, super easy.

So not, no really big projects. A lot of my time is with, with a 4d strategizing and growing, growing publisher based, going up to revenue, things of that nature, but not actually working with JC closely on.

Josh Sebo: Yeah, Adam, right, right. As you got on, we were asking him what it was like working for Jason. Uh, do you have any questions for Ian about that or anything? Uh, anything else before we let him get out of here?

Ian Fernando
Involved in the internet space since 2002 and have been through the ups and downs of this online industry. I am a traveling digital nomad, media buyer, online strategist, and many more online titles.

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