Ian Fernando: Affiliate marketers and media buyers like me we think on the creative side. We think about how do we do this if Facebook restricted us with this? So a lot of people just come to me, buy mostly referral technically, and they want to see the, a problem that they're going through with a creative solution. Well, if you're buying media more, so a lot of people think like, Hey, I spent a hundred dollars. I should make a hundred dollars back. That's really a bad mentality. It's some people you really have to, after all the cleaning and, you know, moving and adjusting creatives and basic optimization, you're probably spending a  wasting a couple grand. Right?

Andrew Tran: Look like focusing on the anatomy of landing page. I think you might have alluded before but one of the core elements, of information architecture that you need in order to your landing layout to convert as highly as possible.

Intro: Hi, I'm Andrew Chang I help organizations find their strategic purpose and enable them to create amazing customer experiences. I've been in the game of marketing and sales for over 15 years across various roles from cutting my teeth on the salesroom floor to strategizing and executing truly transformational projects that have made an impact on customers. On this show. I speak to business professionals from around the world in areas of leadership, branding, marketing, and sales.

Andrew Tran: Welcome to the point of view show my name's Andrew Tran I'm your host. Today we're talking to Ian Fernando all the way over from Brazil at the moment, Ian, how are you?

Ian Fernando: I'm doing good. How's everything on your end?

Andrew Tran: Good, good man. Good, good, good. Hey today I wanna talk about the anatomy of a landing page. And so before we kind of dive into that, it would be nice to kind of, you know, let the people who are watching and listening know a little bit about you. So Ian, if you could do a little bit of intro of yourself.

Ian Fernando: Yeah, sure. The fast version of it is I'm pretty much a performance marketer. I do consulting create my own products but most of my past history is performance marketing. direct response marketing, affiliate marketing in essence, pretty much I tend to buy ads as cheap as possible and trying to make 'em convert onto other end, whether it be maybe a client, an affiliate offer a CPA, CPL offer, or even just my own product that I create. So most of my time, [Inaudible02:43] for conversions.

Andrew Tran: And with that in mind, like I think it's gonna be pretty interesting when we start trying to get your tips in terms of understanding, like, what is the best way to do up a landing page, how to build a landing page that kind of converts as well as possible, obviously like traffic is really, really important, but then there are certain elements within the landing page. That's gonna be really important as well. But firstly as an icebreaker mate, if international travel opens up properly in Asia, what is the one place you want to head to? And why?

Ian Fernando: For me, I think it's from all my traveling, I think for me is going back to Vietnam. You know, I think Vietnam is such a fruitful country in itself where it is just growing busy, but calm at the same time. It's so Seren the vibe and environment there is amazing. Like I don't even have to cook pretty much for the rest of my life just because I have street vendors that are pretty much cheap and healthy at the same time. So I just love Vietnam in itself. It's super-fast growing. I remember the first time, I went there, nobody was into tech, and then the second time I kind of went probably after two years, everybody was into tech and they're growing it's just a fast pacing, slow-moving country. If, if that makes sense.

Andrew Tran: Yeah, no, it does. I feel like Vietnam's in this weird precipice where they're about to jump like about to do leap somewhere in technology. Yeah. But they're, it's like one or two things needs to happen before that kind of occurs, but they're pretty close. In terms of city in Vietnam where's your favorite

Ian Fernando: For sure. Ho Chi Minh, just because I've been there the most I'd rather, I definitely want to check out more [Inaudible04:30] the city beach area. Right now I'm currently in Brazil and I live in a city beach town and it's like New York two blocks away it feels like Miami. And I think I kind of wanna experience that in Asia. And Asia just has a lot of beach places, which is fun, but I feel like [Inaudible04:45] might be the city beach vibe might look for, but currently right now Ho Chi Minh City.

Andrew Tran: I mean, you've lived everywhere around the world. I mean, at one point you lived in Thailand for a minute, is that right?

Ian Fernando: Yeah. Correct. Thailand. I mean, I've lived in most of Southeast Asia from Thailand, Malaysia, Cambodia, the Philippines, and Japan. I mean, you name it.  I've been there, so. I've probably been over, I don't even know how many countries I've been to actually definitely over like 40 plus I just, and now I'm exploring south America right now. Most of South America and Latin America is pretty much vaccinated. So most of the countries are pretty much open with pretty much no restrictions, which is pretty good. The only thing is you just certain places won't let you in like gyms, right. Unless you get a vaccination and all that nature. But yeah. 

Andrew Tran: Yeah. Nice man. Nice. And look like moving on, like, you know, you touched on your background a little bit, right. And you also touched on your globetrotting, digital marketing consultants. Some might say a digital nomad, but you've been really been able to build some really success or businesses like earning six, seven figures. What is the main lesson you've learned through this journey so Far? 

Ian Fernando: Oh man. I think this question or answer for me always changes. It's because it depends what part of my life I'm in. And for me, I think right now it's understanding who I am as a person. Right. So when I made my first eight figures it was awesome. And it was challenging for sure, but also like I realized like, Hey, I'm not a good CEO. I'm not a good C-level person. I'd rather be the media buyer. Just because when you start growing a business, you tend to do pretty much everything in between, and then you just wanna make sure [Inaudible06:32 ] run. So you tend to do the banking, accounting human resources. Right. And it took me away from what I was good at, which was buying media, data analytics data mining, and all that nature.

It took me outta the creative process and just put me in a doing process, which I think I realized was not my persona. Right. And at that time I think for me, it was good to understand me as a person that I never want to have, or be a C level person anymore. Right. A lot of people wanna be the CEO and all that, that's cool. Right. You might have a personality for it, but I know people, the reason why they hire CEOs is because they don't want to be CEOs. And I think for me, I've learned that as a person over time and the more companies I've built, I'd rather be put in a process or start a new process, but never be the visionary of the plan. You know what I mean? Or the supporter of the plan. I mean, you need to have vision just the CEO's job, main responsibility to have support for the company in essence.

Andrew Tran: That's actually really interesting how you said that because you know, it, you went through that journey, right. To really kinda understand like who you are as a person, but also who you are as a business person. And then coming down to that point where it's like, Hey, you know what I love, I like being in the thick of weeds. I like looking at data. I like analyzing, I like being creative in that sense. And I like optimizing. I like moving quickly. And I think, you know, knowing you outside of this, like you have that type A personality where you know, you just wanna get s**t done.

Ian Fernando: Yeah. I mean, that's basically what I wanna do. Right. I mean, I'm consulting for a company right now and it's crazy that they're so successful, but so, also disorganized. Right. And it's very interesting how that works. Organized chaos may work, but I mean I feel like most of the time you're losing time, you know?

Andrew Tran: Yeah. What, what do you, what do you think like when small businesses or when businesses anyway, reach out to you, whether or not they are agency side or client-side,, what do you think is like the big issue or big challenge that they face? And the reason why they come to you.

Ian Fernando: I guess more of creativity and optimization, well, optimization comes from creativity, but most of the time I feel like a lot of people come to me because they hire somebody that is a media buyer or a data analytics person and they're a studious. They have a studious background, right. They graduated, they have this they got a Google certification, Facebook certification, right. But they follow these protocols that Google and Facebook tell them to do. Because they went through this training, whereas affiliate marketers and media buyers like me, we think on the creative side, we think about how do we do this if Facebook restricted us with this. Right. So a lot of people just come to me by mostly referral technically, and they want to see a problem that they're going through with a creative solution. Right. And I think a lot of people come to me for that.

Just because, hey, my immediate team currently is stuck. What can we do to do this right? Then I'll give them, I'll look over their campaign, see what their bidding strategy is currently. And I'll think of another way to get cheaper clicks for them maybe its landing pages or maybe increasing the CTRs maybe adjusting their flows with their funnels, things of that nature. Right. I bring more the creative side, which I think a lot of people are looking for because, in marketing, you need to have both left and right brains. I'm definitely more of a left-brain just because I am analytical, but I am also right. Just because I have to be creative with that data. Right. But most people tend to be either left or right. And I'm able to mend those together in a way where it works for both, both parties.

Andrew Tran: I like what you also said, it kind of comes back down to actionable recommendations or actionable solutions. And so you're able to kind of use your left and right brains in a sense, because you're able to kind of use data to deduce your argument and your point, and then able to enable your team to kind of come up with creative concepts that will then kind of answer whatever challenge that the clients are kind of facing as well. 

Hey, so that actually kind of brings me to a point you just kind of talked about before in terms of affiliate marketing. So you cut your teeth in affiliate marketing. You've been in the game for over 15 years. You post a ton of content resources around this. You've traveled around the world like you've said, and to speak around the world as well. And you know, one of the things about, you know, affiliate marketing is driving that right traffic. And you said that before driving the right traffic to the right side, in order to convert as quickly and as easily as possible, you can do it either like organically, but that takes a bit of time. Or you can do it through paid media, which you kind of use to accelerate, get your learnings, adjust, optimize, and kind of move forward in your experience. What are the common mistakes marketers make on their lead gen page?

Ian Fernando: Well, if you're buying media more, so a lot of people think like, Hey, I spent a hundred dollars. I should make a hundred dollars back. That's really a bad mentality. Its some people you really have to, after all the cleaning and, you know, moving and adjusting creatives and basic optimization, you're probably wasting a couple grand. And when I say wasting, you're not really wasting money. I do that to basically filter out people when I talk to them. If I say, wasting people get so emotional and be like, oh my God, I don't wanna lose money. Whereas maybe some people understand what wasting money is to like, oh, I am gaining data and I can actually decipher the data. Right. That's just one example. The other example is just probably having, not a perfectly optimized page and not optimized copy. Those two play hand in hand, right. 

The organization of copy versus organization landing page also makes a huge difference in how people actually read top to bottom or bottom to top, depending on who the audience is. , right. Are they gonna be more image-heavy? Are they gonna be more context-heavy? Will it be more visual, you know, things of that nature. The thing is just because there are so much variables, just the reason why you lose and waste so much money in the beginning, because you have to find these variables and pinpoint which one is actually perfect for your audience.

Andrew Tran: Yep. And, and you also kind of talk about like having to test and, and whether or not it's the copy or whatnot. Tthere's tools out there, like crazy egg for instance, or hot jar. Is there any other kind of tools that you use to kind of analyze a page?

Ian Fernando: Not really. Most of the time I like right now I'm using hot jar. A lot of people tend to use lucky orange, which is another popular one. Hot jar is the only thing that I think is pretty much needed. You only just need to figure out basic heat map of the end-user. But again, that's assuming you have the right format. And if you don't have the right format on the page, then sometimes you might be dealing with hot jar and figuring out why are people doing this? Why are people doing that? Why are people just leaving right away? 

Another one I tend to use, which is more of a crowdsourcing app or application or website, I guess, is a Pick Fu it's pretty cool where you just create a landing page and you tell people to do one thing, and then they just try to describe their experience on that page. This is more of a crowdsourcing feedback where you can just throw a page out there between two pages or whatnot, and they'll say, oh, I like a more because of this. Or it was difficult to get [Inaudible14:08] option cause of that. Right. And they actually give you feedback to the visual feedback. So that's one tool also I tend to use as well.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. Nice. And, and for anyone who's watching, listen, I'll put the links to, you know, all the resources that, you know, that Ian kind of been talking about as well. Look like focusing on the anatomy of a landing page. I think you might have alluded to it before, but what are the core elements of information architecture that you need in order to, for your landing page layout to convert as highly as possible?

Ian Fernando: Yeah. So it's a really basic strategy. There are two, I guess there are really no two versions of it. There is like who, what, why, and what analogy, which is basically saying who am I? What do I have? Why do you need me? And what to do next? Who, what and why. Another version of that is pretty much the either rule, which is attention into desire. And action, which pretty much the same if you kind of look about it, like, who am I, here's the attention, this is who I am. And then you have what do I have? Here's the intent. Why do you need this? Here's the desire for your issues, what to do now and there's action. Right? So those two are pretty much the same. 

Who, what, why, and what is pretty much like the old Tony Robbins? [Inaudible15:32] strategy ADA is more, maybe the common term nowadays, right. Since I have been in this game for so long, I've tend to grow up on the who, what, why, what version? ADA is fairly new. I don't think fairly new, but maybe like seven years old, the terminology, I guess. Right. You know, like attention can be reverted to awareness. But it's pretty much the same. Grab the attention. What is the intent or purpose that you have on this page? What do I have to deliver and why you should function with me, which is the desire and actionable item or call to action on the bottom page and what to do next. That's basically the format basic, basic format.

Andrew Tran: And like for, for, I guess for like, you know, obviously it depends on the industry or depends on the business, but say for instance, we'll take like a small to medium business. Right. And they might be selling something that might be considered a high end. Like it's, it's in a couple of thousands of dollars in terms of its [Inaudible16:30 ] service. When you try to build a landing page for that particular client, how would you, besides like the variable factors that you kind of spoke about before and the methodologies, is there anything else that you would try and get information off to kind of determine roughly like how much time you're gonna need in order to a quote-unquote waste bit of budget. So leverage a portion of that budget in order to test and learn and then kind of look towards like you know, some sort of gain and returns.

Ian Fernando: Well, I think for lead gen, it kind of varies. The consumer or client or whoever I'm talking to, need to understand what is the value of that end user. If that end-user stays with the company for three months, let's say an agency model, a contract of 90 days, and that person generated X amount of revenue. Then they should take that as the cost per lead gen over time.  And then over the amount of time they spent on ads or maybe six months. So it really, really depends. You have to understand that number value first. Right. And then after that, I tend to like, look at, okay, what does the agency product, what it would have to offer? What is the main benefit that it has given me?

 For example, let's take weight loss, right? A lot of people tend to like, hey, just lose weight, but why lose weight? You know what I mean, lose weight because your husband is about divorce you, right? There's an angle more specific, more emotional, more cold hearted, and then use that emotion to help trigger with the ads. The idea of the landing pages to constantly get them to flow toward action. And when they get to the action, they actually do take action. A lot of people, when they do copy, they just put the most generic stuff on there. And it's cool having the generic stuff is good, but you're not getting actionable results. An actionable result is people actually scrolling through the page, reading through the page, clicking the button, right. There's engagement on that page. When there's no engagement on that page, then there's something wrong with a copy. I mean, something wrong with the organization and the layout, right?

So those are the things that are pretty much important. And then once those are basic set up when you do an ad, it's pretty much easy. Now you have to use copy on the ad to be relevant enough to the page that you created.  I have a client now that we're doing lead gen for they are I don't wanna say their specific agency, but they're basically B2B business. And I've created a lead gen page, which is very, very short, which basically tells them like, hey we know who X amount is. We know how to do this. Focus on your business. Here are the case studies. Here's what to do now. Very, very simple. And it's pretty much straight to the point when I have people go through the page, which is probably just another one scroll on a mouse. I know that they're interested. And then that allows me to actually fire pixel to create an audience, or hopefully, they schedule a call with the client I have.

Andrew Tran: And do you find like with B2B, there's a longer lead time, s therefore, like you might have to generate several basis email like if you've caught their emails, you've had to kind of create a bit of funnel, like a longer funnel than you would. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, exactly. So right now we have, we have a funnel that goes to the lead gen. In between the lead gen, there's a pixel firing for actionables and then goes to the calendar, right. Obviously there's a drop-off. People tend to not want to go to or schedule a call right away. So we have a full funnel of yes and no email series of what to do next. Like if a person did not schedule an email gets sent out welcome and this is a whole nother copy on what to do, right. Just because this is a full marketing funnel, again, just because you have a landing page, you buy media, you get a lead that's cool too, but you also have to work on the series of the email.

So we have the intro who we are, right. Attention. It’s first one, if they did not click or schedule a call within that email, they got put through a no process. Then they go through the next email series. Right. The next email series is the intent, oh, you know, why you should use us is because of this and this and that. If there's no schedule on that, it goes through another one. And we use the same process to ADA process or desire, but within desire, we tend to put now testimonials in this phase, just because we're introducing ourselves more so to help the user’s potential to escalate their business more. Right. So we have to back that up and we add testimonials in the email and then if it is a no the last one is a more of an overall actionable item. We will say, hey, we recognize, we saw that you didn't wanna schedule with us, but here are several blog post to keep in touch. If you have any more questions, blah, blah, blah. Right. The email's more like a four or five-day email series just to keep the user looking at our name, looking at our name, looking at our name, and trying to get the engagement. Right. And hopefully in that four or five-day series, they click yes. The email series stop, and then a call a scheduled and go through a call time agent. So,

Andrew Tran: And, and to tie it all in, do you also fire off sorry. Do you also do remarketing? So when they land on certain social media platforms they are able to kind of see, like you're able to kind of determine, okay. Which part of the journey, like if you're using the, ADA model, like which part of the journey that they're in, are they in that decision making zone or, or maybe they're in the, you know, the further up, so they're more likely in that awareness moving into, you know, attention or desire or something like that.

Ian Fernando: Yeah, of course. I mean, we are targeting or remarketing is pretty much very important. It's also, there's also another strategy to do it properly, in my opinion. A lot of people, tend to just look at people that actually did the actionable stuff, landing pages, or the conversions whereas I tend to just use each segment in a different way. And I try to put them through a specific journey. So when I do retargeting, if not just maybe through LinkedIn or Google, it's more like, oh, let me put all these pixels in Google tag manager. So I can create an ecosystem of retargeting where I can target these users on Twitter, maybe on some news sites, maybe on Facebook, maybe on other native platforms, or whatever. So this way I have a whole scope of where to target these users.

And then once I get those targeting users down from lead to page view to lead to conversion. Then each one gets its own series, almost like a different email series, right. One gets a potential intro. Then it goes like, Hey, you haven't check this out. Why didn't you feel schedule second? One's like, oh, we know that you entered you email at us, but you didn't schedule. And then we'll go through this weird email stage, whereas it's not stalkerish, but more like hey, did you forget? I'm here? Like, I'm waiving my hand at type style where it's like, but I'm not saying like, Hey it's been three days since you haven't scheduled a call, you know, that's a little bit more creepy, so we don't wanna go there route, but each section of retargeting and gets its own mini funnel in a sense.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. It's like a, it's a nice little nudge in a sense.

Ian Fernando: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Tran: Hey, so like I wanna talk more about like the lead gen part of it as well, but you know, before we, I know you're a bit really busy and stuff, prediction wise I notice you've also kind of mentioned a few predictions, like for 2022, when it comes to ad spend for those who are watching or listening new to you. And they're also thinking about ad spend whether or not it's for their own business as a consultant or, you know, or for a large kinda FMCG or whatnot those in Asia. So what, what do you think are gonna happen over the next, like, you know, 2022, when we start looking at ad spend

Ian Fernando: Well, ad spends always increasing year over year, right? The best thing about ad spend as a media buyer, I think you have to-- a lot of people think that they just buy conversions, but I believe you have to buy clicks. If you ever watch a movie Money ball, and there's a famous scene where Jonah hill and say, Hey, your goal isn't to buy home runs Your goal is to buy bases. And the more bases you buy, the potential home runs you can get. It’s just mathematical so that's how I think about it. Your goal is to buy clicks, cheap clicks as possible. Right. And then hopefully that turns into conversions. A lot of people already just want to buy conversions and sometimes it just doesn't work out because all they understand is the conversion part, but they don't understand the click value or click journey.

Next year and the years after a lot of new platforms gonna come out, TikTok is getting popular YouTube is just starting. Snapchat is just starting. There are other platforms that are getting huge organic reach, like for example, anything that you search health-related, healthline.com, you can just buy ad, directly on that site. Right. Instead of going through an inventory box or a DSP box or, or anything of that nature. So there's gonna be platforms like that. Medium.Com core.com. You Reddit, you're gonna buy ads directly on, on those platforms because of the high, high volume. Right. So the idea is what platforms do you want to use? Pinterest is very popular. Those are different ads, styles, right? Linkedin it's super expensive, but you know, depends on, what your lead base is gonna be. 

Andrew Tran: It's highly targeted.

26:19 Ian Fernando: Yeah. Yeah. But LinkedIn TikTok, Snapchat video image related platform will probably be the next thing in traffic.

But I feel like traffic's always evolving. It's just, how fast can it get on top of it? Will it be cheap enough that you bounce on it because it was the first Facebook or maybe the first Google before everybody jumps onto it. That's kind of the idea and it's the reason why I always watch different sources of traffic. When I see an ad, I always be like, oh, where does this ad come from? Where is it being distributed from? So always to be on lookout for new traffic sources, I think.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. I mean, speaking about traffic source, like, do you find that more businesses now because they wanting to own the data a little bit more instead of using an intermediary, like for their inventory like certain websites, whether or not it's entertainment or views or whatnot that have high volume traffic from a broad sense will begin to own their own kind of distribution ad platform.

Ian Fernando: Yeah, of course. I mean, healthline.com is a perfect example. It’s like a, a 25 K minimum to advertise on their platform. When you reach a certain amount of impressions per day, you can say like, hey I have this amount of distribution. It's the reason why newsletters are getting so popular nowadays because they have direct access to consumer. Like for example, the hustle, the morning brew is a very popular one. They can ask brands to be like, hey, we have a potential reach of 10 million people and we will email you twice a day. That's 20 million impressions they can potentially get. So that's, I think the big discretion where owning your own data source is important. I mean, push traffic, like I started growing my own push traffic network as well. And with that sense, you have that data, you can be like hey, I have a potential reach of a million users.

I will send your ad three, four or five times a day. So that's 5 million potential impressions. But it really depends. And how much time you wanna spend on growing your own distribution channel? Morning brew pays like $2,15 cents per lead. But when they first started, they were doing a viral campaign. And a lot of popular newsletters are doing the same thing, but push networks. I mean if you have your own distribution, of course, its better. You become your own traffic source. It's the reason why a lot of businesses, a lot of Philly marketers, a lot of media buyers own their own email list because they have that potential to just email us after the click.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. I mean, I see that with Tim Ferris, for instance, like [inaudible29:02 ] and it became like just a small email newsletter and now he just promotes that like hell now, like he, and he's got ads flowing through like on Facebook and all the social platforms just to capture those email addresses. Just exactly what you just kinda said before, like using that as leverage when it comes to sponsors and stuff coming in.

Ian Fernando: Yeah I mean even with only distribution that haven't changed in as long as I've been on internet. So,

Andrew Tran: But do you find though as emails, like, as people have jumped on the email bandwagon, the newsletter bandwagon, will you find though that the open rates and performance of newsletters will become more important, yes but the actual performance will be worse because, everyone will be just beyond some sort of newsletter and then they're gonna get spanned by all these like distributors.

Ian Fernando: Yeah. There's a potential for that. But I feel like the reason why people sign up on newsletter because they're, they're interested. There's not like a push notification I’m kind of forcing you to join, even though you don't have to, whereas it's super accident ways you could type in each letter of your email address. So there is a wanting fact factor for it, sure there can be a lot of spam, but Google is so good at detecting it that people just reported span Google, like, okay, let's just block x.com from 20% of inboxes. Let's see if anybody notices, then let's start blocking 23. And that's how Google's inbox system work to just prejudge. Especially when they're getting a bunch of reportings. But I mean, it's easy just for people to unsubscribe. So I think it won't be much of a difference in my opinion.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. I mean, it's pretty interesting what you kind of said in terms of 2022 where like ads will be kind of basis. Well, based more on the clicks, like the importance of clicks will be much higher. But also email capture, like data is gonna be so important. I think that's one of the things like when I speak to clients here in Asia and elsewhere around the world, like having a nice clean data is really important. One client I had, like, they had like hundreds of thousands of emails like in their database, but the database was so dirty in a sense that it became really difficult to even try and do some simple custom audiences like campaigns because it was missing so much data and it always became useless. And then there was so much balance. So like soft balance, hard balance coming in. So, yeah I-

Ian Fernando: It's important to really clean the data first before emailing a lot of people make this huge mistake without cleaning and they just email and they basically destroy their esp relationship or their servers or whatnot.

Andrew Tran: Yeah. And I think another thing that's really important for emails and it kind of touches back on that landing page as well. Like you've built this landing page, part of the traffic is this direct traffic that you're probably gonna get through your email database, hopefully, and then also your paid media as well, but with your email database, like, there's an argument to say, hey, if you've got a big base of like a hundred thousand, for instance, like, it makes sense to leverage 10% to do that testing, very similar to your methodology in terms of like how much data can I leverage or use as test or waste, as you might say, like you would always apply that same theory with emails as well. Like what is the percentage of emails I can test? Yeah. 

Ian Fernando: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's important to test the data that you have, especially if you're not consistent, if it could, the idea is to take cold and warm and turn to hot. So if you have a really cold list, I means you have to change your strategy on how to look warm your list to a hot list. So, yeah. It's always important to test small versus huge.

Andrew Tran: Yeah a hundred percent like having that email nurture campaign to kind of reactivate cold leads in a sense of cold email addresses to make them warm again. Yeah it's really important. But Hey, look like finishing up, I've got one question. I ask all my guests on it. If you had to give an advice to a C-suite or a small business owner to improve their Legion in order to sell that product or service, what is the key things you would advise them to review or look at?

Ian Fernando: Copy. I think copy is super important. Because a lot of small business owners, product owners they wanna write from their current point of view when they should write it from the consumer's point of view. So there's a actually good video by Simon C-mak that he basically took a test with a homeless person and he adjusted their sign, not from the homeless person's point of view, but the giver's point of view. And the homeless person actually made their day's revenue in one or two hours, I believe and then that homeless person actually just left and decided hey, I made enough money for a day. I don't need to do anything else. But, by changing the perspective of copy from your business, you have to change it for the copy on the consumer side, because it's the consumer you're attracting, it's not you you're attracting, you already know your business. That's awesome that you know your business, but the consumer doesn't. So how do you give it to the consumer's point of view and give it to them on copy? So they feel the emotional, they feel the need, they feel the need to sign up, they feel the need to do whatever you want. That's the idea copy, I think, is super important.

Andrew Tran: You made a really good point that mode of action that copy really makes. And that's in all honesty I think that's what justifies, why it's really important to find a really good copywriter and actually to pay that particular copywriter. That's why they're worth quite a bit with it. But Ian, thank you so much for coming onto the show. I think anyone who's watching or listening got a ton of value, especially a little bit of a peak in the world of affiliate marketing and what you do, but for anyone who's watching or listening and they wanna reach out to you, where are the best places to contact you?

IAN FERNANDO: Obviously the best is finding me on my blog, my website, Ianfernando.com, and then you'll find all my social media links, content links et cetera on there. So Iandernando.com and if you have any questions, just reach out

Andrew Tran: All right and I'll put that in the notes. So guys, thank you so much for watching and listening. Thank Ian and for everyone else, I will see you in the next episode.